Jumpstart a Milwaukee M18 battery

Greetings,

I am a long time lurker both here and on Syonyk’s blog. I’ve learned lots by lurking and I appreciate the knowledge that has been shared and I use it sometimes.

I work in a hardware store and from time to time we get batteries of various brands back for numerous reasons. On a company forum a question was posed about “jumpstarting” a Milwaukee battery. This video was shared as a method, someone else mentioned using a 9V battery to do the same thing. I was wonder what actually might be going on here. I very much lack the detailed knowledge to even guess, besides possible warranty voiding.

In my area, Milwaukee sells slower than Dewalt so the batteries may sit on the shelf longer than others, so a way to recover them without involving outside people would be great. However, I’m mostly just interested in what could be happening that the charger itself can’t fix.

The charger refuses to charge a battery that is too low. Check the voltage on the deader than dead one.

The jumpstart doesn’t refuse to try to charge it so it gets enough to register on the charger.

I actually can get discharged batteries to start charging by putting them on and off the charger a few times until they stick.

Aaaagh. Use spade terminals, not razor blades! At least they’re… mostly taped.

And don’t do this. I really, really wish he’d have shown the voltage on the “dead” battery before doing that, because depending on the voltage, the “good ideaness” of this behavior ranges from “It’s fine” to “You really, really shouldn’t be doing this.” Given the “15 to 20 minutes” timeframe mentioned, I’d wager it’s in the “You really, really shouldn’t be doing this” end of the spectrum.

Many tool packs (and, apparently these…) are “always live” to the terminals. I’ve torn down some that have a set of transistors of some variety that can turn the output off, but almost all the newer ones are “dumb as doornail batteries” - which I think is the right answer. The battery is hooked straight through to the pins, always live, and all the “smarts” related to balancing, low voltage cutoff, etc, live in the tools and chargers. This means the battery pack is as cheap as possible, which beats the really expensive, somewhat exotic early lithium tool packs with really fancy BMSes (that were, of course discarded when the battery was worn out - I have plenty hanging on the outside of my office now for flair).

Either internal self discharge or some parasitic drain of the onboard PCB has drained the cells down below the low voltage safety point that the charger will tolerate, so it (rightly) doesn’t charge dead lithium cells. Lithium is physically stressed at “fully charged” and “fully empty,” and as you go past “fully empty” (about 2.5V/cell per most datasheets), the cell is increasingly physically stressed. Let it go to zero volts, or even negative (I’ve seen some quite horrifying negative voltages on series cells in a fully discharged pack - several volts negative), and the physical stresses internally are significant, and can do very real damage to the internals.

So, he goes about hooking them up to a live battery, and charging them back up, in an entirely uncontrolled manner, not having checked pack voltage, balance, etc. That’s dumb. I’m wary of anything under about 2.5V/cell, and I won’t recharge anything below 2.0V/cell unless I know exactly how it got there, and it’s not been there very long. Some random pack of unknown origins and history below 2.0V/cell? Nope. Not going to risk that.

The problem is that you’ve no idea how the cells are damaged internally - and generally, whatever damage they’ve taken won’t show up immediately. It will show up sometime later in their life, when the additional stresses of cycling combine with the over-discharge damage and you get an internal short, runaway cell, and a lithium ion blowtorch. It doesn’t always happen, and a lot of people get away with it, but it can and does happen, often enough that it’s a pretty well stupid idea to play that game.

But, forced charging like that will bring the voltage up to whatever point the charger considers the safety cutoff, and it will charge the (probably damaged) pack happily, because at that point, it can’t tell the difference.

Now, there’s another behavior you’ll occasionally see on higher end packs that’s quite different, and that’s a “storage mode” or “low power mode.” A BMS draws current when operating, even if the pack isn’t being used, and will discharge the pack over time as it monitors things. It’s not a problem in a daily use pack, but it is an issue with a pack that sits for 6 months or a year. So, some better BMS designs will, after a period of inactivity, go into a storage mode that puts them into a super low current (typically uA, on the order or less than the self discharge of the cells) mode. But they won’t come out of this mode automatically - something has to wake them up. With a tiny bit of cleverness, you can wire things so that plugging it the charger will provide this wakeup signal, bring the BMS board back online, and let you get on with life. But this won’t be (or, at least, shouldn’t be) a “nearly dead” pack activity - you’d want to trigger it around 65-70% SoC, if the pack hasn’t seen activity. Or, lower, if the pack has sat for a while.

And I guarantee that’s not the case with this tool pack.

So, this is yet one more person on YouTube, who clearly doesn’t know a damned thing about lithium, abusing them (and encouraging other people to abuse them) in ways that look fine at first, and have a way of biting down the road when you least expect it. Business as usual, sadly.

@Syonyk Thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate you sharing detailed knowledge in an understandable way.

And don’t do this. I really, really wish he’d have shown the voltage on the “dead” battery before doing that, because depending on the voltage, the “good ideaness” of this behavior ranges from “It’s fine” to “You really, really shouldn’t be doing this.” Given the “15 to 20 minutes” timeframe mentioned, I’d wager it’s in the “You really, really shouldn’t be doing this” end of the spectrum.

I wasn’t planning on it, and I’ll try and steer anyone who brings it up away from this idea.

Let it go to zero volts, or even negative (I’ve seen some quite horrifying negative voltages on series cells in a fully discharged pack - several volts negative), and the physical stresses internally are significant, and can do very real damage to the internals.

How?..To show negative volts wouldn’t the battery cell have to be pulling energy from the tool reading it? (Sorry, I did poorly in electrical stuff in Physics in high school, and haven’t even tried to keep up.)

So, this is yet one more person on YouTube, who clearly doesn’t know a damned thing about lithium, abusing them (and encouraging other people to abuse them) in ways that look fine at first, and have a way of biting down the road when you least expect it. Business as usual, sadly.

You…would probably be unsurprised at the number of people who come in convinced they can do something electrical because they’ve seen something similar done in the past. But they don’t really understand what they saw. Or it was in gray area of code 20-40 years ago, but is now clearly in no go area.

Like no, I don’t have a female 20A 240V to male 15A 120V adapter just lying around. What part of that sounds like a good idea to you? Also, go check your breaker, and your wiring, before proceeding.

Again, thanks for the detailed info.

Yes, but dumping energy into a battery made of a element that has rep for chemical instability seems like a bad idea. Like the kind you end up explaining to the fire department or an OSHA inspector for an afternoon.

Yeah, which is why I only do it a bit (and usually only the drop on charger a few times trick).

Mainly because I had a setup that wouldn’t stop drawing from the battery when it went low.

The trick to remember is that the cells are in series - so current flowing through one will flow through all of them. If you force current through a cell, it’ll do things.

So if you have, say, 3.0V, 3.0V, 0.5V, 3.0V, 3.0V in a pack, you’ll still have 12.5V across the pack - but as you drain it, that 0.5V weak cell is going to continue to have current driven through it, even as it drops to 0V. And then, the logical thing happens, it starts going negative. Is it designed? No. Is the capacity much? No. Is it doing horrid things internally to the cell? Yes. But the voltage will go negative.

Clearly not an EV owner. :wink: Most of the non-Tesla EV owners I know carry a wide range of adapters from 120V to 240V and back, since a lot of the portable EV adapters will run fine on 120V and 240V. I can, for instance, take a 240V 14-50 outlet, convert that down to run over a 120V extension cord, and convert back to the 20A 240 plug one of my chargers uses. The insulation is rated for 600V, so it’s fine… I just carry L1/L2 instead of L1/N over the extension cord. But don’t plug other stuff into the end.

Sorry, Just really don’t want to explain to my boss that the reason his business burned down for the second time in ~20 years, is “I tried something silly I read on the internet.” Let it be his fault, he does enough stuff to get on OHSA’s naughty list.

Thanks for the education.

No, I don’t have an EV (next car, probably, after my Toyota dies) but I would have thought EVs in general would pull more from the RV tech areas. That said, RVers are also in here asking for weird stuff as well, but it also seems like they, in general, have a better grasp of what they are doing and want than most people. I guess I should pay more attention to that side of things.

In this area 20A 240V is going to be a rare plug, often positioned in a place that’s not going to be convenient for EV charging. That guy wanted to run a large window AC unit. I don’t think it would have gone well from what I got out of him. It sounded like the plug was some distance from the window.

People also sometimes want “male to male” suicide plugs to connect generators to their house, because they installed the wrong kind of connector on the house (e.g., back feeding through a dryer plug rather than correctly setting up an interconnect: What is a Suicide Cord and Why It Could Kill You - YouTube )

Which reminds me how much I hate equipment with oversized plugs. 110v 15 amp device with a 30 amp plug WHY???

Outside the 14-50 plug (240V with neutral, 50A), I’m not sure there’s any overlap. EV stuff has to work daily, RV stuff… mostly doesn’t. But an RV campground is a good place to charge in a pinch, especially if you’ve got some serious onboard charging capability.

I’m not sure they have a better grasp of what they’re doing… they just mostly have the money to blast through. Handy Bob Solar’s rants on RV solar are a good read, and I generally try to avoid 12V anythings, as they’re mostly subject to the RV tax. Which is steep.

It’s certainly not a common plug, but it’s easy enough to add if you need it!